Combat in Overgrowth

[Sumguy720]

So here's the deal. I'm a speculator. This is one of the reasons why I'm really into overgrowth's development, and why I pre-ordered.
I can't help but fantasize about the future! So I've been working for the past few days on a fighting system for overgrowth, and I want to hear other people's ideas on the matter.
DISCLAIMER: This is fanciful speculation, by no means is this to be thought of as official in any way.

Foreword:
First off I made a short list of all of the combat-related controls that are likely to be in OvG.
+ Primary attack (henceforth Left mouse button (lmb))
+ Secondary attack (henceforth right mouse button (rmb))
+ Counter attack/block key (henceforth Shift) (like ducking in lugaru)

Next, I speculated as to the weapon types that could be available in the OvG universe (pretty standard stuff)
+ Large weapons
+ Small weapons
+ Unarmed strike
+ Ranged weapons
and the long/short weapons would have subclasses of sharp/blunt.

Everyone with me? So far this shouldn't be too startling, I'm going for simplicity here, because this gets complicated. Next I had an interesting idea for weapon ranges.
+ Long range (projectile)
+ Mid range (about 5-6 feet)
+ short range (3-ish feet)
+ close range (1-3-ish feet)
Each weapon class would have either built-in or user-related advantages and disadvantages at each range. I'll get to all of that in a moment.
This is all the classification one needs for a very rich combat system:
+ Which attack/defense button?
+ Which type of weapon?
+ What range?

The Combat Mechanics:
Now this is where I've done a lot of thinking:
The attack buttons:
Primary attack would unleash a fast, reduced damage attack. By no means is this attack going to kill your opponent in one hit, but it will certainly hit faster than any other move you know.
Secondary attack would unleash a hard, slower attack. This attack does a good amount of damage, using all of your skill in timing your shot you can crush through blocks and cut down all who stand in your way.
Counterattack/block will depend on your weapon class.

Large weapons:
Large weapons are used for two purposes, their range and their potential for damage. Large weapons do significantly more than any other weapon at mid range. They are slower than most weapons, but don't get too comfortable, a large weapon is still fast enough that you might not see the blow that kills you.
Pressing the counterattack/block key with a large weapon allows the player to block secondary (heavy) attacks.
+cannot reach long range
+bonus at mid range
+okay at short range
+huge disadvantage at close range (alternate attacks, hitting with the pommel of sword, pushing with shaft of spear.)

Small weapons:
Small weapons are fast and furious. While their heavy (rmb) attacks may be slightly slower than a large weapon's fastest attack (lmb) they beat large weapons in speed blow-for-blow. Small weapons are able to reach through short range, but most were not meant to be used at mid range. Small weapons are unique in that they can be thrown (one time use), making their best ranges short and long.
Pressing the counterattack/block key will allow the player to parry all light attacks, even doing damage back to unarmed combatants.
+ Can be thrown to long range
+cannot reach mid range unless thrown
+Effective at short range
+usable at close range

Unarmed Strike
The best weapon for a fight is the one you have with you, and if all you have are your fists, well you're better for it. Unarmed combatants have the shortest reach of all, just barely matching some of the shorter weapons for range with kicks. The unarmed combatant kicks at short range, and throws knees/elbows and fists of furry at close range. Unarmed strike takes no range penalties Edit: but heavy attacks (kicks) are the same range as (sometimes a little longer, sometimes a little shorter than) short weapons.
Pressing block/counterattack with unarmed strike allows the player to counter heavy attacks (with a chance to disarm), and blocks light melee attacks (large weapon close range, or unarmed). Blocking edged weapons would result in a damage penalty unless the weapon was successfully disarmed. Unarmed combatants may also dodge projectiles at a moments notice.
+Long range (only if you have laser eyes)
+mid range (nope)
+short range (good)
+close range (good)

Ranged/thrown weapons:
What you see is what you get. HUGE fracking range, reasonable attack speed, but sucks in close quarters. Better pack a small weapon if you plan on getting up close and personal with your targets.
Pressing block/counterattack zooms the player's view maybe?
+Long range (GREAT)
+Mid range (not so great)
+short range (really really bad)
+close range (better just hit them with the bow)

End

So it's just like rock paper scissor lizard spock etc. I went through probably 64 different scenarios where different weapons and different attacks went up against one another, and it seems reasonable. Each weapon would have a different animation for each range/button combination, plus one or two variations of those.

What ideas have you guys had about the combat mechanics, and what do you think of my idea?

[Taylor]

I've been thinking just a bit about species differentiation, a critical element for immersion in my opinion, and I got to thinking a bit about different fighting styles. John has already mentioned some elements, like how rabbits' leg attacks may be more powerful than most, but I think it's a bit silly and would be very disappointing if all races had the exact same move set, just with different animations. This isn't realistic, and would make playing as other races (as will surely happen in mods) a little less interesting. Therefor, I think it would be smart to think of one or two "racial" moves for each species, aka, a powerful move that only they could use.
I've only done some brief thinking on this, so what I have is sorta rough, but I think it makes sense.

Rabbits, of course, should be the only race to use the dreaded rabbit kick (I really don't need to explain the logic behind this).

Wolves get the animal tackle, the one feared by all who've played lugaru on insane mode. This is in keeping with their animalistic, aggressive nature, and because this is so dangerous when the opponent is trying to run away, it makes sense, as wolves would will never let potential prey escape. Also, it's hard to imagine the other, slightly meeker species of overgrowth using such a brutal and feral attack. This is, of course, in addition to the wolves' claws, which deal slash damage, as they did in lugaru.

I'm thinking dogs might get a sort of powerful bite attack, something that would be very short range, but fast and very devastating, dealing both blunt and slashing damage if the opponent gets caught by it. Because dogs prefer to fight with weapons, they normally keep a reasonable distance from their opponent. But if an enemy manages to slip past the inner range of the dog's polarm, rather than try to switch to a dagger, a quick bite would be faster, and a powerful disincentive to get that close to a dog. Besides, dogs' teeth as a weapon have been mention several times in blog posts and the comic. Because of its unbalancing power, though, it might make sense for this to be a defensive move only, and therefore possibly only be available through a reversal.

As for rats, we all know that they hate to get involved in fights in the first place, so it doesn't really make sense for them to have a powerful offensive move, unless it was a stealth blow, which have always been one-hit KOs anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Rather, rats should have devices for them to avoid being seen, and to escape from fights they don't want to be in. Instead of having an attack, they might have a button to "lay low", making them harder for enemies to spot on open ground, and possibly invisible in tall grass or something. I know crouching already does something along those lines, but let's just say that this is more effective. On the other side of the coin, if a rat found itself spotted and surrounded by enemies, it needs a way to escape. Turner's handspring move worked reasonably well in lugaru, but if the rat had a more effective way of doing this, or even a way to jump directly out of a group of enemies without getting caught, this would fit in with their evasive, hard-to-catch nature.

As for cats, I'm not too sure yet, as they're possibly the race who's combat style we know the least about, besides their acrobatic talents. On that note, they may have aerial attacks, for all the good that would do, or possibly some move like the wall kick, which would require wall running space to execute. Alternatively, they may have a way of controlling large amounts of opponents at once, such as a weak spin-kick that could knock back all the enemies surrounding them at a time. I really don't know. As I said, I'm not too sure about cats yet. However, one possible element, which isn't really a move, is claws like the wolves, but sharper (more slash damage per hit) and weaker (less blunt). This is pretty realistic in regards to real-world cats, and would give one of the less muscle-bound races a good edge in combat.

So, I don't really know about any of this, or whether it's a good idea to complicate things with attack options one race has, but others don't. On the other hand, maybe all races will have a completely different move set. This is all a product of only about ten minutes thought, so if anyone has better ideas, then by all means, add them, and if anyone thinks this is a bad idea, tell me, but explain why. and I know this isn't technically the original topic set by the OP, but it's at least related, and this is the best place to put my thoughts for now. So, check it out, and respond with your thoughts.

[capn.lee]

i've enjoyed reading this and I agree as far as movesets are concerned, they need to fight differently, even if it is something as simple as they have the same movesets but have different speeds/strengths and counter abilities between races. I do like your ideas, keep them coming

[Moth42]

Mount and blade : Warband combat system is very interesting, Block left/right/up/down with your mouse depending on their strike (left/right/up/down)
I really like this combat system because it requires skill.

[Count Roland]

Combat in lugaru always required more skill to me then that did, but that might just be my prejudice speaking.

[Sumguy720]

The biggest difference between M&B combat and Lugaru combat is the complexity of user input. You could do a lot with two buttons in lugaru, but M&B uses mouse direction/button1/button2 with separate clicks in between. I like them both, but in overgrowth I would like to see something more fluid, like using range/button1/button2 for attacking (really only two user inputs) and one key for blocking.

[GaGrin]

My biggest issue with M&B is actually that the defence is a poor rather than good parry. There is no exploitation at all, so it doesn't actually HELP you, while in Lugaru the defence is also an aggressive action (the reversals actually do damage).

Everything I've read and seen about combat technique involves not statically blocking, but creating an opening or somehow improving your position at the same time as defending.

This also ends up being more fun, since the defensive moves can be just as important for winning as the aggressive moves since it's equally decisive if used appropriately.

[WallyWorld]

Another big difference with Mount&Blade is that you have a stat system that affects your attack/defense values rather than Lugaru where it seemed to be all about timing and lining up your attacks with other enemies or objects to be the most effective.

Both combat systems are great, and I've played both for marathon sessions going far longer than I would care to admit, but there is something slightly more enjoyable about Lugaru's fluid spurts of action packed combat over Mount&Blade's more hack and slash style. All I know is that when I stop playing Lugaru it's usually because of frustration with the terrain in the mod campaigns, as opposed to Mount&Blade where I tend to just get bored of the gameplay after a while.

[Moth42]

Hmm then you haven't played Warband Multiplayer, if you join Duel servers..
Blocking is actually a must there , fighting with other experienced players can be real fun , you can have long fights when both know how to block

there is also Kicking in M&B warband , its a good tactical addition (kicking shielders ,that facehug you)

[Baradine]

Do you go shield or no shield? I'm no shield myself. Not because it's easier, but when you beat the crap out of everyone, they feel like nubs with their shields. Then they switch to no shield and I pwn them even harder!

But about the combat, one thing you forgot is that that second button you have for a hard strike, is what the developers have designated as a throw button (I think it's right button, but all I know for sure they is that they have a throw button to be implemented in the game).

[Endoperez]

The controls haven't been set in stone yet.

At some point one button was the throw button, yes, but then there was also the idea about making one button agressive and other passive. You could defeat enemies with either, but when you finish them off with an aggressive attack they die (broken neck), while when you finish them off with a passive attack they're just unconscious. I don't remember where it was discussed, but it ties in to some of the things mentioned here:

http://blog.wolfire.com/2009/01/fightin ... in-itself/

[GaGrin]

Hmm then you haven't played Warband Multiplayer, if you join Duel servers..
Blocking is actually a must there , fighting with other experienced players can be real fun , you can have long fights when both know how to block

there is also Kicking in M&B warband , its a good tactical addition (kicking shielders ,that facehug you)

I have, and it's fun in it's own way. But I have the disadvantage of having an interest in actual sword-fighting and while M&B has alot going for it, Lugaru captures the speed of action/reaction much, much better.

People forget that those guys showing off swordplay on youtube are doing it slowly (like many of the research clips linked on this forum).

Also, I'm less than impressed with how the game handles weapons versus armour since the original M&B release version; the OLD rules for armour effectiveness made more sense and prevented some very odd behaviour.

That said... keeping a close eye on some mods that I hope will spice things up a tad. Though fundamentally I think the game's biggest flaw is the complete disconnection between movement and swordplay. In reality, these are not completely independent actions and in M&B they are. Learning appropriate footwork to step during your stroke is one of the very first things you have to do in any kind of fencing, even the relatively centred and mobile kendo.

[snugglingbears]

As a martial artist of some prowess, i agree with the others who have weighed in: Lugaru caught the pace and stance of real combat with greater accuracy than any other game i've played. The most powerful move in real-world unarmed and armed melee combat is a single step: a step backward at the correct time is life and death, a step forward turns defeat into victory. I was extremely happy with that aspect of lugaru: the position of characters and environment carried an appropriate weight, and the actual input of keystrokes related to function was focused more on positioning and tactics than on throwing a punch at the undefended angle. I am happy to let my avatar use context to determine which strike to use at each time step, as it brings the focus of combat to timing, positioning, and tactics, which are the heart and soul of a realistic combat experience.

One thing that I would love to see change from Lugaru to Overgrowth would be the addition of strong racial flavor (as discussed in a previous post <3) The wolves in Lugaru had their own feel thanks to eschewing weapons, but they still were basically pointy high-HP Turners. The way I see it, rabbits = hang time + speed, wolves = no weapons, uberclaws, physicality, dogs = weapon + armor experts, rats = ultimate stealth, and cats = grace, both in movement and swordsmanship. I think all of those things can be accomplished in varying things like the force imparted by jumping, the damage values of unarmed, the speed of armed attacks, and the detection range, though I do like the idea of having some flavor moves in each race's arsenal.

Gear will probably be the most racially distinct feature, and the most rock/paper/scissors, which is appropriate to reality.

[Jackrabbit]

I like all the idea's posted here, they look pretty well thought through
Although Shift never really was a block button though, as I recall playing Lugaru, Shift was for the reversals and counterreversals(so yeah counterattacks) and not for weapon blocking, when there was an enemy rabbit with a sword and you had a sword you would automatically block with LMB which was kinda weird to me but it sorta worked and i'm not too sure about the "projectiles" though
They should add more moves/weapons ofcourse but not so much that they change everything, although in my opinion the Reversals should be... more precise by that I mean, when an enemy attacked me and I saw that he started the attack I could already use the reversal when he started the attack, I wish it was more like.. right BEFORE the attack hits only THEN can you do a reversal ya know?
But I guess it worked out quite good since Lugaru was so fast paced, I just loved it!
I do like the idea of a RMB attack

[akblabla]

Another idea for a basic unarmed combat system could be based around three buttons, LMB, RMB and shift.

Shift

As in lugaru, shift is your defensive button, but it isn't reversals. The shift key would either block or parry the enemy attack. Blocking if your timing was slightly off and parry if it was just right. A block would unable you to attack in the next 0.2-0.5 seconds, so after a block you can really only try to parry the enemies next attack. The parry however will make your next attack faster, if it is a slow to medium attack, and your enemy's next attack will be delayed 0.2-0.5 sec.

Reversals

To make the best form of defense, the reversal, the player would need to use the attack countering the enemies attack, for example if the enemy makes a round-house kick you can make a sweep-kick to both hit him and avoid taking damage. Another example could be if the enemy tries to sweep-kick you, you could make a short jump and make a rabbit kick, again avoiding damage by jumping over the enemy kick and badly damaging him.

This mechanic would make being skilled a little more rewarding as parries and reversals makes the combat more smooth and epic.

Attacking

For attacking you would have 2 buttons RMB and LMB, LMB for punches, RMB for kicks

LMB

All the punches should take equal amount of time to do, whatever the state and can do small to Medium-high'ish.

RMB

Kicks on the other hand does small (sweep kick) to lethal damage, but will be slow to do if you haven't used enough different types of actions in the last 10 seconds. These actions could be jumping, wall jumping, attacking, blocking and so on.

Exploiting Mistakes

To make it more interesting it could be possible to make some attacks impossible to succesfully parry or block, so the player need revers some attacks. These attacks would also need to be easy to revers as it would be obvious a quite OP attack. The rabbit kick could be one of these, so the enemy need to roll away to avoid taking damage, and if you choose to block it would only save 10% of the damage and 25% if you parry (without any bonuses).

That mechanic could make it possible to really exploit people blocking instead of parrying your attacks.
I don't exactly know how good this mechanic would turn out as it could lead to players always making rabbit kicks when the enemy is blocking instead of varying their attacks.

Conclusion

Don't know of this system would work, but i think it would make people need to vary their attacks if they want to make some badass kicks, including using the terrain for their advantage.